Comments

Butler had 3 blue chip players (Heyward, Howard and Mack) the first year and 2 on the second. They also had 9 Jrs or Srs on both teams! That’s more than enough talent to win 3 or 4 coin tosses, which is what they did.

I don’t think last year’s Butler team would have made the NCAA tournament out of the ACC. The first team might have finished in the top half of the league

JoeyD on 01/31/2012 (2:50 pm)

Friends , Please don’t let this board become another one of the back and forth “bicker boards” ..To borrow a phrase from one moment in time ” can’t we all just get along”

Billy Jo Jim Bob on 01/31/2012 (1:49 pm)

JoeyD,

I did not say that Duke did not have a lot of players make it to the NBA.  I asked how many NBA STARS has Duke produced?  (Duke players almost always underperform in the NBA because they succeded as a team in college and not as exceptionally athletic individuals.  Once they get to the big league they turn out to be fairly run-of-the-mill contributors.) 

And if talent matters so much, how did Butler make it to the NCAA championship game two years in a row?  How many high school blue-chippers were on their roster?

(CHECK MATE!)

Matt on 01/31/2012 (1:46 pm)

Matt,

Duke has more players in the NBA (17) than any other school. N.Carolina is second (11).

Duke has more Top100s than any other school in the conference over the past decade. They have 6? 7? of the last 10 conference titles. Talent matters.

Talent matters. Coaches recruit young men, hopefully with talent. Then coaches take these young men from their homes, often poor, broken, single parent homes and build their character. That’s the purpose of universities, to educate young men and women and make them successful, fruitful members of society.

To decry these individuals as hopeless, less than or unworthy says more about us as a university than it does about them as teenagers. If we are failing to develop these young men, we are failing in our mission.

It takes a great deal of skill, pride and self determination to develop one’s self into a division one scholarship athlete. If one has the ability and drive to advance himself to that level, he has the ability to grow in character as well.

If you have knuckleheaded Jrs and Srs, you have a discipline issue on your campus. If you have knuckleheaded Frs and Sophs, you have an opportunity. Last I checked Tabb and Terrell and Stewart were Fr and So.

JoeyD on 01/31/2012 (11:10 am)

I am sorry and sad to read many posts that are certain of Bzdelik’s failure.  Does the man not get a chance?  This team is young and it is getting better.  There will be disappointing games (NCSU, Clemson) but there will also be successes (VT, BC).  The next few games will be tough, but then Wake has BC, GT, Miami, Cmenson - maybe Wake can go 2-2 in that stretch.  Things don’t change overnight and we just need to stop having knee jerk reactions.  How can you all be so sure that Buzz should be fired?  Let the man recruit and let him coach - that is how schools with integrity behave.  Are the boys behaving badly?  Are they playing hard?  As long as the answers are No and Yes, then we must give Buzz a chance.  Here is how I see the next 9 games: UNC (15/85), NCSU(30/70), UVa (30/70), Clem (50/50), GT (50/50), Miami (50/50), BC (60/50), Duke (10/90), GT (50/50).  At best, the Deacs finish 16-14 (7-9).  At worst, they should be 14-16, 5-11).  You know what - we all should be happy with 14-16 (5-11) based on last season.  If Wake is going to build this the right way, then it will take time.  Grobe does it the right way and things did not change overnight.  But they are competitive in football.  I think they could be there in hoops as well - and if Wake is lucky, another Tim Duncan will fall into their lap.  I hope Wake does not sell its soul for immediate gratification.

Tony on 01/30/2012 (7:45 pm)

@ Ken, Mr Nowell you already know the answer to both your questions. First lack of character and integrity will sink your ship faster then a report card full of “f’s” at Wake Forst—as it should ....The answer to your second question will be in 425 days.

Doug on 01/30/2012 (7:29 pm)

Some of these players that are no longer with us were thugs…plain thugs that could play. I’ve seen thugs go to Oklahoma State and become stars and begin to learn what a man/student needs to learn.
I totally disagree with the assumption that Gaudio used Skips recruits. remember, Dino did most of the recruiting so they were his as well. However I do agree that if Skip had lived you would not have seen these same players go down the wrong path.
All one needs to do is go look at Buzz past record at other schools and Denver. Thats it. He never lived up to the expectations nor was there ever much success. There were good coaches out there but for some reason we were sold on a bill of goods without doing our research. At the end of the day say what you want, Bzdelick will never win here no matter what the talent level.

Tony C on 01/30/2012 (6:02 pm)

JoeyD,

I never said that talent doesn’t matter.  I just said that talent doesn’t always trump character.

I don’t put a lot into recruiting rankings for basketball any more.  The highly touted incoming Wake class of a few years ago (Aminu, Walker, Woods) never amounted to what everyone thought they could be.  Once again, character mattered (see Tony Woods as prime example).

How many Final Fours or Elite Eights did Coach Prosser get to at Wake, even with top-tier talent and a high octane offense?  Defense matters.

And regarding Duke’s success, it has mostly been on the back of Coach K.  How many stars in the NBA played at Duke?  Very few.  I would even venture to say that Wake Forest has produced just as many NBA stars as Duke has.  And just how many Final Fours has Duke been to with what has panned out to be above-average (but not superior) talent?  A good group of players with a good game plan and discipline can achieve wonders in college basketball.  I’m not saying necessarily that Coach B is the one to do it, but you don’t have to have 5-star talent to be successful if you have a discplined, well-coached, hard-nosed team.  Guys like J.T. Terrell and Ari Stewart would not fit in on such a team, and so they were dismissed.

Matt on 01/30/2012 (5:45 pm)

Doug, The way you wrote that it sounds like you are privy to more information than I, and I will take your word for it. Still hate the loss of such potential. I wonder if you could shed some light on the choice of Bzdelik for the coach? Are any of the people that make that decision ready to give the fans some relief and make a change or do they see things much differently than I do?

Ken Nowell on 01/30/2012 (5:44 pm)

@ Ken ,,,Mr. Nowell you have to trust us when we say J T Terrell did the best thing for WFU..Under our flimsy gentlemans agreement I will leave the details out. Just know if I took the time to write this there is more to the story then you see on the surface.

Doug on 01/30/2012 (4:24 pm)

I think it is time for Ron Wellman to come out (as he did last year) and give Coach Bzdelik a verbal show of support. It was Ron Wellman who fired Gaudio and picked Bzdelik. It was Ron Wellman who let the Wake Fans know that the culture at Wake had to change and the best way to do this is to hire Bzdelik. Tomorrow night we play UNC. Will we have another 30+ point loss as we did with State (at home)? Does changing the culture of Wake basketball mean that we always have to loose and never think about a winning season or going to the NCAA playoffs? Should we assume that we might win two ACC games this year and maybe three next year? I think since this has been from the very beginning Ron Wellman’s choice to hire Bzdelik he should give the Wake Coach a show of support. I just don’t think Wellman has it in him to admit he made a mistake (a huge mistake). So if Mr. Wellman is so certain about his coaching choice he should come out now and verbally support his choice.

Craig Carter on 01/30/2012 (4:01 pm)

I hear a lot of people blame Gaudio for the talent exodus last year. I wonder how many of the players we lost could have been saved with the right coach. A lot of kids with problem attitudes or poor fundamentals can change when you have a coach that they believe in. At the same time good young men can turn into nuckleheads when they feel they are in a bad situation. I hate to see JT Terrell in another uniform. His potential was unlimited. This seems like the kind of kid some coach can reach and turn that potential into success. I do not know enough of the particulars to say for sure, but Wake sure had a lot of kids that developed into problems when Bzdelik became the coach. Maybe they were all lost causes and nothing could be done, but I can’t help but think that things could have turned out differently with the right coach. Players will literally run through a brick wall for some coaches and give little to no effort for others.

Ken Nowell on 01/30/2012 (2:31 pm)

Matt,

The talent coming in next year is not as good as the talent that came in last year. Nor is it as good as the talent from the previous year (just more of it).

Last year’s class had 2 top 60s, 4 top 100s and 1 outside the top 150. Next year’s has 2 top 100s and 4 outside the top 50. Further, the two highest recruits in next year’s class are a PG and a SF. We already have both.

There is a C, who appears to be a work in progress version of Ty Walker and a couple big body PFs who are not the caliber of a Melvin Tabb.

Talent matters. Don’t believe it? Duke has 11 top 100s Carolina has 9 top 100s Florida St. has 7 top 100s. Everyone else has 5 or less.

As far as playing defense…

Sometimes the best defense is really good offense. Skip Prosser’s teams never really played defense. Roy Williams teams don’t play much defense.

If your offense constantly applies pressure every single trip down the floor eventually the other team’s defense will cave or the offense will be under so much pressure to perform that it will self destruct.

Duke has great defense, but where they really beat you is the firepower fromo their wings. You miss 2 shots and commit a deadball turnover and suddenly a tie game is a 6-9pt deficit, then you panic.

JoeyD on 01/30/2012 (2:15 pm)

J.T. Terrell and Ari Stewart refused to play defense (or at least play it the way the coach wanted it to be played), and that is the clearest indicator of selfish play that exists.  When it was every man for himself with some solid senior leadership (i.e. when Ari Stewart was a freshman) Ari did okay. But when an actual system was implemented along with appropriate discipline, Terrell and Stewart wilted whereas C.J. Harris rose to the top.  (BY the way, I am still convinced that Ty Walker could have been a great player had he had the opportunity to play under Skip Prosser and not under Dino Gaudio.)  Talent does not always trump chareacter - just ask Jim Grobe.

As Dan has said, most players who start for Wake would have a hard time even making many ACC teams.  This is what Coach B has had to work with.  Next year (if he is still around) will be his telltale year.  Just ask Kentucky “Coach” John Callipari what can be done with a bunch of raw but talented freshman.  Wake better finish in the top half of the ACC next year or the search will begin anew for another coach.

Matt on 01/30/2012 (1:33 pm)

I forgot about Walker (my bad).  I am not in or out of Bzdelick’s corner, but I know that we have to let this play out, at least one more year.  I kind of think after talking with fellow Deacon Club members and reading this blog, that there are three camps right now:  1) Fire him immediately, 2) He’s doing it right and making progress and 3) Give him another year with a good recruiting class and plenty of time for his system and make a decision after next season.  I would say the least support is in the #2 camp which tells me he is either on a hot seat or one that is getting progressively warmer.

Jim on 01/30/2012 (12:48 pm)

Jim,

McKie and Harris are not our highest rated recruits. Harris was not even a top 150 prospect.

Walker is the highest rated recruit and in terms of what he’s supposed to do (recruited as a defensive stopper, severely lacking on the offensive end) he does it well.

Next in line were Terrell (explosive scorer)and Ari Stewart (long 3 with inside outside skills)both were as advertised and fell out with the Bzdelik administration and are no longer with us.

Then it’s McKie, a powerful SF, good back to the basket player with some range. Plays as advertised.

Next is Desrosiers. Advertised as a European style C who plays away from the basket with an excellent touch from outside. He seems to be as advertised, difficult to tell since we don’t let him do that.

Only then do you get to Harris (combo guard) and Chennault and all of this year’s class.

Bzdelik has done a miserable job in developing the talent he has and in using the skills they have.

The offensive set he wants to run is terrible for the type of players he has. He has race horses and he wants show horses.

The defense is getting better, thanks largely to Ty Walker. We still need better support once Walker stops the shooter, but it’s much improved.

JoeyD on 01/30/2012 (11:21 am)

The good news is that there are only 9 more games plus a first round loss in the tournament and chapter 2 of the nightmare will be over. The only question remaining is whether or not “The Joel” will be wall to wall baby blue tomorrow night. It seems that we have lost the students and all but the most never say die fans….plus Winston has always been a Carolina town. If you are a season ticket holder and have thrown in the towel just tear up your tickets and don’t sell them to a Tarheel. I would rather see it empty than looking like a smaller version of the Dean Dome.

Deacon23 on 01/30/2012 (10:39 am)

I had been among those who had defended Caoch Bzdelik until now.  Last year’s incoming class may have had a high ranking, but they’re really not turning out to be as good as advertised (save Travis McKie). And last year would not have been as bad had the team had a serviceable point guard for the entire year. I still think that most of this is Coach Gaudio’s fault as most of these are his players. (He primarily succeeded by playing Coach Prosser’s recruits, do don’t let the man’s record fool you.) As far as coaching ability and managing players, Coach Bzdelik outshines Coach Gaudio in just about every respect. That is not to say, however, that Coach Bzdelik’s team should be doing as poorly as it is. At his age and with his experience these guys should be playing a lot better and a lot harder. As has often been said about Coach B, it too frequently appears that the man has no emotion during games. That may work for Coach Grobe, but I’ll only let Coach B slide on that after he wins an ACC championship like Coach Grobe has. I still suspect that the plan all along has been to groom Rusty Larue to be the next head coach, giving him time to learn under the tutleage of Coach B.  But the way things are going I don’t think that would be a very good or popular move at this juncture.  Things are looking bleak for the Deacs…and it appears it may be that way for a long time to come.  Wake fans, we’re looking more and more like the Charlie Browns of the ACC world.  Sigh.

Matt on 01/30/2012 (12:24 am)

It is hard to see how next year will be all that different than this year or last. Bzdelik, in his first season, inherited a top 10 recruiting class and some decent returning players. The expectations were low, but a 15-15 season seemed reasonable. The actual results were historically bad. It is almost imposiible to overstate how much that team underperformed.
This coming year we should have a top 15 recruiting class to go a long with a few capable players. I fail to see where we will have more talent than Bzdelicks first season. I would expect that we will hear how Wake has 6 freshmen in the starting rotation and we cannot judge such a young team until they have a chance to mature.
Bzdelick has some good qualities. I believe he is able to teach skills to players. He probably knows more about basketball intricacies than I will ever know. This does not mean that he has the qualities nescesary to succeed as a head basketball coach in the ACC. Even in this incredibly watered down version of the ACC, the product looks bad.
The decision that we all know will eventually be made needs to be made now instead of 2-3 years from now.

Ken Nowell on 01/29/2012 (6:10 pm)

Dan,

I would have bought the young argument a decade ago when many teams had senior leadership.  I don’t buy it anymore.  This is not a young or inexperienced team by modern standards.

John Sanders on 01/29/2012 (2:20 pm)